This original post was made shortly after the original incident as was made out of frustration from forgetting not to let things on the internet bother me. It was originally more pointed and used hyperbole and was in part guilty of some of the exact things I ranted against. I originally wanted to delete it, but instead I decided to spend the extra time and clean up my loose language and hyperbole in the hopes that that would be a better response. The original was long and the edit even longer, and I have limited time so it won’t be perfect. I ask that if you read this you not let these things distract you from the substance of what I was trying to say.
I remember when this forum was an active, technical forum where technical support was given and productive conversations were had about the future of Qubes. In a way I should be happy, since the recent downtick in technical discussion and uptick in less productive discussion are markers of how user-friendly Qubes has become. But I would like the old forum back because it was one of the last places left where I could find useful technical discussion with minimal drama. I’m talking to those who have contributed to this decline; you know who you are on this forum. This is in regards to the general problems with people posting drama/inappropriately and with unfounded attacks on the mods, but specifically in response to the most recent example Mullvad VPN co-owner gives ~$500k USD to far right Swedish party and its subsequent drama.
This is my opinion and I’m speaking only for me, but I hope you listen. I’ve said it before and I’ll continue to say it: this forum is not the place for politics inasmuch as they do not directly pertain to technical matters, privacy, security, or another very closely related thing AND Qubes. It’s not the place for partisanship. It’s not the place for you to twist this into your narrative. It’s not the place for left, right, center, or anything that’s not technical. It’s great to say for instance that age verification is bad. Why? Because that’s not left, right, or center. It’s about the invasion of privacy and that it’s just a universally bad, technically incompetent idea. (The relation to Qubes is that OS-level verification is being pushed, which directly affects Qubes.)
It’s also not the place for personal attacks. Even if the owner of Mullvad were an actual “I believe in concentration camps” Nazi, it doesn’t change the fact that Mullvad VPN is a very technically high-quality VPN app/service with a great set of features that I personally have only seen competition on from IVPN. Mullvad VPN has not only taken no actions that would actively harm its users and has taken many actions to protect its users that weren’t expected of it. (This isn’t meant to be a Mullvad advert, just addressing how fragile the argument of the OP of the referenced thread is.) It’s not that it’s not a valid thing to be concerned about a company whose leadership may act in ways that affect you. It’s that you’ve made implied accusations (that Mullvad is compromised) that are flatly false, to the best knowledge of anyone I know. That makes it personal: about beliefs and politics and not about the actual technical efforts or actual content or intent of the programs/services they offer on a forum that is about the technical things related to Qubes. You’ve not only made it personal, and that has no place here, but you’re basically discussing cheese pizza on a forum dedicated to steel manufacturing. Absolutely discuss it on some other relevant place! Say how he’s such a bad person for a donation he made in his personal time and his own money! Say how no one should ever touch any company he’s ever worked at ever again because of it! Just don’t do it here. (I’m not actually supporting these things, just pointing out how ridiculous it sounds.) This place is for discussing the actual facts as they relate to Qubes.
I, for one, have very strong beliefs on a great many of controversial subjects. I’m not really on any other forums near to the degree I am here. I am tempted often to give my opinion on many of these matters. I can sympathize with the desire to do that. But there is a right place to do that, and here isn’t it. It’s especially not the place to make inflammatory statements based on your personal opinions and beliefs. It’s not about if what he supports is good or bad. There are people I don’t like, and products I stay away from because I don’t agree with the political direction of the company. But these people have the exact same right to their opinions as you and I do. If for some reason you have to discuss it, just follow the simple guidelines of not speaking ill of anyone not guilty of a specific, directly harmful offense and keeping to as neutral of tone as appropriate. Here’s an example: “I don’t like the political direction of someone in leadership at Mullvad VPN. Can someone make another recommendation and guide for that VPN to accommodate me?” You’ve expressed your exact same opinion, but it’s in a polite tone and it’s not inflammatory. It may get closed because it’s not about Qubes, but now instead of causing problems and division, you’re just off-topic and hopefully willing to listen to the mods when they tell you so. It’s THAT simple.
On the subject of mod censorship:
These people are giving of their time and energy for free to help this forum thrive. Their job is literally to censor, and you won’t always agree. I don’t always like their choices, but I’m not volunteering hours of my time to prove myself, become a mod, and then to do it consistently to do it better either, am I?
Again, the theme here is not that you can’t say what you want. It’s “keep it appropriate or do it somewhere else” and “don’t be a jerk.” So, if you don’t like a mod decision or direction, just DM them. Just ask what they were intending and say what you think in a polite way. and listen to what they say. They have been very helpful and understanding with me, and approaching them politely and humbly goes a long way in getting that treatment. And if you think they’re doing something wrong and approach them nicely, then they’ll make reasonable accommodations for you. If they don’t, they probably have a good reason and you should try being humble about it. If they give you a problem personally or as a group, try to handle it personally or as a group. Then escalate. There’s also no problem with creating a thread about how you don’t like the overall moderation theme. But don’t do it by personally attacking the mods by calling them feds over evidence that could equally be explained by them holding a different opinion than you or by controlling how things are done so that the forum is kept neat and tidy. If you have a post that’s been moderated, DM the mod(s) and ask what you can do to raise it in an appropriate way. I personally guarantee that they will tell you the exact reason your post was moderated and what you can do to post it OR that your post was wholly inappropriate and this isn’t the place. They may even tell you a good forum to talk about it.
Let’s take the example of Intel’s ME. Someone (I don’t remember who and it doesn’t matter. I’m not picking on them, just using their mistake as an example) a short while back complained publicly that mods were silencing discussion on Intel ME. They ignored the fact that there has been incessant discussion on the forum about it. They ignored the fact that recent discussion has said nothing new and had gotten off-topic for Qubes. They ignored that mods aren’t disallowing the topic, but that they want it contained to existing threads. The fact was, that mods weren’t silencing the discussion at all, but that they were managing the forum and preventing one topic from commandeering it. In other words, they were doing exactly what they should.
I’m not defending the mods because I’m bootlicking. It’s not even because I agree with them. In fact, there is at least one point of the CoC that I cannot stand. And to be perfectly frank, I’ve heavily debated in the past severing ties to Qubes entirely over my differences. It’s a big deal to me and makes me uneasy with the forum–and the entire project to a smaller degree–to this day. Including any/all mod decisions that have come of it, and there have been some. The most recent of which, a while back, almost caused me to post hastily and burn bridges. But I ended up keeping my cool and went on with my life for the same reason I’m defending the mods. Because they put in the work–good work, and consistently–to make something that I use and depend on that no one else provides. So I practice gratitude and perspective-shifting to see things from their side. And a surprising amount of times, it looks different from their side and I often learn it’s at the very least more complex than it seems. It certainly often prevents me from acting like an utter fool from not considering the full circumstances.
The bottom line is that they are doing their best trying to make the best overall decisions for the forum. Take the example of Maybe is a good idea to open an offtopic category on forum?. (Sorry to pick on the OP here. It isn’t personal, you’re just a good example that I remembered first due to recency.) The OP in that topic wants an offtopic category and one of his arguments amounts to basically “I don’t like that only a few people decided this, so it should be opened to a vote.” That’s a terrible argument because it addresses absolutely zero of the problems and is an essentially a dignified “but I want it my way.” It outright ignores the fact that moderation is a finite resource that is consumed in quantity at will. In other words, people can take however much they want, but there’s only so much to go around. The OP is making requests with a large demand on a resource that is already strained in this forum. A later poster, @kuhbs, has much better points, but they still don’t address a single part of the issues that prevent. To his credit, he does at least acknowledge the main problem of moderation man-hours, but he dismisses something way more of a problem than he realizes:
Moderation is a human element in this forum and the mods here put quite a lot of effort into actually trying to make this forum open and friendly within the rules. They weigh whether threads should be closed versus unlisted, they provide in-depth reasoning when put on mock trial by unhappy recipients of moderation (and those of like mind to them) just the same as they do to good-faith questions about how their moderation is affecting the overall well-being of the forum. They offer specific guidance on moderated posts. The main reasons I’m defending the mods are because they are keeping this forum alive by contributing of their free time and built reputation, and they’re doing a good job overall. That deserves recognition and respect. The other main reason is because I genuinely believe that some people simply won’t listen to the mods because they have a personal problem with them or the moderation in general, and maybe hearing from a neutral third party will help them see the larger picture. For the record, I was all in favor of a very controlled offtopic category for general Linux on Qubes, since many new users will need help with Linux and won’t know the difference. I will still suggest it, but now my focus will be almost explicitly on how to address moderation with minimal impact on current resources, if possible.
It’s the same thing with bringing politics to the forum. Mods have to be neutral because as soon as they say their opinion, they cease to be as effective of a mod because they just lost the respect of about half the population of people who believe that holding a different opinion than themselves is grounds for cancelling. I’m not advocating that your opinions be infringed. I’m asking that you try to remain neutral, and when you can’t try to make it as moderate as possible. Don’t be any more political than you have to be. You can say that you don’t like a view, but very rarely does it truly need to go further. Respect the forum, and if you don’t like something raise your objections respectfully both of the forum and of people who have opposing views. It’s not that they aren’t important views. It’s that you harm the very things you’re trying to make better (Qubes, privacy, etc.) by attacking the people who are trying to support the same things you are because there are differences in something unrelated. These topics are already suffering, whether it be from governments all over the world simultaneously becoming less and less free, to most people just not caring enough to do much, to charlatans almost everywhere trying to sell you a product and lying to do so under the guise of privacy and security. Fight other battles as much as you want, just do it in their arenas for the sake of preserving this one. Remember that the people here are your friends because they want the same things as you as long as they are in this forum. Even if they have differences on how they want it done or what they consider important within this realm. There are also plenty of victims of the charlatans I mentioned who need time to understand that they’ve been lied to.
If you’re someone here who’s taken political stances or attacked the mods/moderation (beyond respectful criticism), I truly hope that you will come to the table here. Please, most of you who are doing that are also giving valuable contributions. We want you here. We just want you to be nice and respectful about it, as we would all be happier. All it takes self-control and restraint. You have to overlook thing you don’t like in order to get the things you do. But everyone, you especially, are the better for it. Please give this serious consideration.
Original Post
I’m disappointed. This is always going to be a problem, but I’m disappointed at the uptick in scale, or at least the loudness of the few, that has happened recently. I’m talking to you, you know who you are on this forum. This is in regards to the general principle, but in response to the most recent example Mullvad VPN co-owner gives ~$500k USD to far right Swedish party.
This is my opinion and I’m speaking only for me, but you should listen. I’ve said it before and I’ll continue to say it: This forum is not the place for politics inasmuch as they do not directly pertain to technical matters, privacy, security, or another very closely related thing. It’s not the place for partisanship. It’s not the place for you to twist this into your narrative. It’s not the place for left, right, center, or anything that’s not technical. It’s great to say for instance that age verification is bad. Why? Because that’s not left, right, or center. It’s about the invasion of privacy and that it’s just a universally bad, technically incompetent idea.
It’s also not the place for personal attacks. I don’t care at all if the owner of Mullvad is an actual “I believe in concentration camps” Nazi. It’s not that it’s not a valid thing to be concerned about it’s that you’ve made it about beliefs and politics and not about the actual technical efforts or actual content of the programs/services they offer. You’ve made it personal, and that has no place here. Absolutely discuss it on some other relevant place! Malign him to your hearts content! Curse him out and say how you believe he should die! Just don’t do it here. (I’m not actually supporting these things, just pointing out how ridiculous it sounds.) This place is for discussing the actual facts. I, for one, have very strong beliefs on a great many of controversial subjects. I’m not really on any other forums near to the degree I am here. I am tempted often to give my opinion on many of these matters. But there is a right place to do that, and here isn’t it. It’s especially not the place to say “This one person involved in a project supports something I don’t like, so let’s cancel him permanently.” It’s not about if what he supports is good or bad. There are people I don’t like, and products I stay away from because I don’t agree with the political direction of the company. But these people have the exact same right to their opinions as you and I do.
“I don’t like the political direction of someone in leadership at Mullvad VPN. Can someone make another recommendation and guide for that VPN to accommodate me?” See how easy that was? You’ve expressed your opinion in a forum-appropriate way, and you’re not being a jerk about it nor implicitly demanding everyone else share your opinion. It’s THAT easy.
On the subject of mod censorship:
These people are giving of their time and energy for free to help this forum thrive. Their job is literally to censor, and you won’t always agree. I don’t always like their choices, but I’m not volunteering hours of my time to prove myself, become a mod, and then to do it consistently to do it better either, am I?
Again, the theme here is NOT that you can’t say what you want. It’s “keep it appropriate or do it somewhere else” and “don’t be a jerk.” So, if you don’t like a mod decision or direction, DM THEM. Just ask what they were intending and say what you think in a polite way. AND LISTEN TO WHAT THEY SAY. They have been very helpful and understanding, and if you think they’re doing something wrong and approach them nicely, then they’ll make reasonable accommodations for you. If they don’t, they probably have a good reason. If they give you a problem personally or as a group, try to handle it personally or as a group. Then escalate.
There’s also no problem with creating a thread about how you don’t like the overall moderation theme. But don’t do it by personally attacking the mods by calling them feds over evidence that could equally be explained by them holding a different opinion than you or by controlling how things are done so that the forum is kept neat and tidy.
Let’s take the example of Intel’s ME. Someone (I don’t remember who and it doesn’t matter. I’m not picking on them, just using their mistake as an example) a short while back complained publicly that mods were silencing discussion on Intel ME. They ignored the fact that there has been incessant discussion on the forum about it. They ignored the fact that recent discussion has said nothing new and had gotten off-topic for Qubes. They ignored that mods aren’t disallowing the topic, but that they want it contained to existing threads. The fact was, that mods weren’t silencing the discussion at all, but that they were managing the forum and preventing one topic from commandeering it. In other words, they were doing exactly what they should.
If you have a post that’s been moderated, DM the mod(s) and ask what you can do to raise it in an appropriate way. I personally guarantee that they will tell you the exact reason your post was moderated and what you can do to post it OR that your post was wholly inappropriate and this isn’t the place. They may even tell you a good forum to talk about it.
It’s the same thing with politics. I’m not advocating that your opinions be infringed. I’m asking that you respect the forum, and if you don’t like it raise your objections respectfully.
Is this truly so hard? I’ve come on so strong because you all are better than this. But I truly hope that you will come to the table here. Please, most of you who are causing the most problems on this matter are also giving valuable contributions. We want you here. We just want you to be nice and respectful about it, we would all be happier. Yes, it takes self-control and restraint. You have to look at others doing what you want to do and swallow your pride. But everyone, you especially, are the better for it. Please give this serious consideration.