Though I truly appreciate the complexities of projects like Kicksecure, Whonix and Qubes, and I enjoy ‘messing’ with computers and Linux, I cannot get any of these applications/distros to work reliably. By that I mean being confident enough to take them into the ‘field’, so to speak, and be confident I could rely on them.
So, back to good old TAILS OS for me.
As I say, kudos to all involved in these projects but they are not for me.
See also:
Annnd, there’s the kicker. Probably uncalled for and not appreciated.
I was trying to explain my issues, give praise and encouragement to the dev teams and provide insight into ‘real-world’ issues in using these projects from a personal perspective.
Two things before I go…
Projects like these usually stall and suffer poor uptake because of jumped-up tech bros who just can’t keep things positive in the forums and have to be the clever ‘top dog’. Examples: GrapheneOS and Session Messenger.
I am 66 year’s old and have been an electronics/computer technician since 1975. I have a Degree in Computer Science and have almost completed a Master’s Degree in Cyber Security. I probably forgot more about computers last week than you will ever know, sonny!
Anyway, have a nice day everyone else.
The famous Netflix culture deck emphasizes that Netflix is a pro sports team and not a recreational (as in for kids) team. Open source projects are the same way.
We don’t care how old you are. We don’t care what color your skin is. We don’t care if you put it in someone’s butt or take it in your own butt. [CoC violation, user suspended for 48 hours by @Sven]
Capacity for technical reasoning trumps all other professional factors, period.
The Kicksecure, Whonix, and Qubes projects are made by hackers for hackers. Apparently you are not one of us.
I have a hard time believing this, because you posted earlier that you are unable to make these distros which are Unix clones “work reliably”. Unix is a very simple system. However, one must be a genius or something close to a genius to comprehend the simplicity. And, being a genius (or not) has nothing to do with age.
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As a non-hacker, you can most certainly enjoy an easy to use GUI that delivers to you all of the advanced benefits of these distros without ever seeing “under the hood”. The way you can do this is by paying a consulting company that has access to talented developers who can build such a product and provide it. All of the benefits of these distros are available to everyone in one way or another. There are more than a half of a dozen vendors that resell GrapheneOS to pedestrians, for (just one) example.
Qubes-certified computers are suitable for non-hackers, such as journalists, to use Qubes.
To successfully run Qubes on hardware that is unsupportable, such as a 2015 Macbook, a hacker may be (more likely than not) necessary. The ability to communicate successfully with hackers at the very least is necessary.
Are you serious?
Lose the attitude pal, its just a computer.
Wow…
Emm… sorry to interrupt your most intelligent conversation between you two, but can you explain why you think it’s Unix and not Linux??? I mean linux is linux for a reason, why would you call it unix?
Linux is a functional (but not genetic) clone of Unix, or a half-baked attempt at cloning Unix. Linux is not Unix and GNU is not Unix.
Spoiler: the second best part of all of this is that I am not a moderator
and I do not have permissions on this board to modify thread titles / threads.
Complaint of Fraud and Harassment sent to mods@qubes-os.org.
Account deleted.
so it’s a thing to call it unix informally because of that even though “genetically” it’s not the same code etc?
No. And we aren’t referring to Linux as Unix here (maybe re-read what was posted). Unix has a simplicity. Linux is an attempt at a Unix clone. There are code quality issues and holistic design issues but it is still successful in this attempt.
Those who know well the living genetic descendents of Unix that are actually good like OpenBSD and illumos may be quick to point out that unlike GNU+Linux the original the Unix systems are complete systems that have all pieces fitting together holistically. However, GNU+systemd+Linux systems and musl+Linux (with BSD userland) such as Chimera Linux still carry the same spirit of simplicity, or at least enough of it. Any high school sophomore can go through the Gentoo Handbook and “get” that simplicity.
Systems that are based on Linux are very often called Unix-like. Linux is often referred to as Unix-like. “Unix-like system” can refer to a lot of things but in most places where you may read “Unix-like system” the system being referred to is something that includes a Linux kernel.
Now I’m a bit confused 
But eventually what you saying is that there’s a thing to call linux as unix informally, but there’s a bigger and stronger distinction between them, right??? So functionally they are similar(linux behaves as unix despite the code is different), but there’s more into the distinction as you answered(complete systems vs not etc).
Or is it I’m not getting it?
TL;DR: Unix-like often means a Linux based system.
BSD systems and descendants of BSD systems, including illumos that was commercially developed and then released as open source (as OpenSolaris) are Unix.
Way back in the day the GNU project’s strategy was to replace one by one the individual Unix programs with copyleft software.
Some of the GNU programs were either functionally better or had better user ergonomics than their original Unix counterparts. Some SGI Irix, HP-UX, and a lot of SunOS (before it was Solaris) users would spend days downloading and compiling GNU userland software just after getting the expensive machines those proprietary Unices ran on.
In that same chapter of computing history, Linux was written with inspiration from Unix and Minix and iterated on very rapidly in the style of open source projects. There was a scare about lawsuits (thanks AT&T…) over copyright and challenges matching the necessary talent to develop GNU HURD at speed. Many who attempted to run Linux organically reached for the GNU userland software. The rest is history and here we are today.
See the documentary Revolution OS. You are on this forum so you will probably appreciate this documentary.
Redox will obsolete Unix and Unix-like (Linux based) systems or systems that include Linux as a key part (such as Qubes) soon enough.
Sun Microsystems eventually released OpenSolaris. illumos is the fork of OpenSolaris.
“including illumos that was commercially developed” is a enough of a technically true statement. But those who care for this issue are pedantic (as they should be) and will probably take issue with it (as they should) ; hence this subsequent comment providing this further clarification.
Yeah you got it.
Wow, thanks.
Didn’t know about Revolution OS documentary, will watch it.
This shocked me a bit 
I’m just getting into qubes after starting to use linux and now you’re saying redox will come and replace it? Come on!
Is this something you discuss in the closed forum?
I never heard of Redox, kinda interesting, even though I have high doubts it’s going to replace linux/qubes soon, but my “soon” and yours may vary. I mean they will need mature system, hardware support, applications compatibilities, and a lot of dev time etc.
Qubes is a giant kludge. Qubes is what works right now.
Redox has a microkernel architecture. Drivers run in userspace on Redox. Redox can isolate drivers. Qubes isolates drivers by running another copy of Linux dedicated to a device, such as with sys-usb.
Linux can run drivers in userspace but Linux is not intended to do this so drivers in userspace is relatively uncommon.
Redox had some recent developments that open the door for much of the existing library of FOSS software to compile and run and Redox.
For proprietary applications that run on Linux that are attractive to some users such as Discord’s desktop client (as an example), these applications can run in a VM much like how an app can run in a qube. These can be run in a “seamless” way where the pedestrian user can remain ignorant to how the app is run.
Such applications that are proprietary for which source code is not available might run on a Linux compatibility layer, if that layer is developed.
Either way, proprietary apps (for Windows or Linux) will run and users won’t know the difference. Users in corporate environments have been running Windows apps (Microsoft Office) for about two decades with no clue that Linux (or something else) is underneath.
Most future Redox users won’t have major problems with hardware support and won’t know they are using Redox. They will buy a computer that “already works”, which is what ChromeOS (Chromebook) users don’t know they are running Linux.
Just like how even most programmers who drop $4,000 on a Macbook are almost-all oblivious to XNU and its Mach roots. The rest who are not technical users are still high quality users because they pay money to companies that pay engineers to work on things and make sure those things work well.
The faux-technical enthusiast crowd will have challenges with hardware support. The middle of the bell curve users such as heavy consumers of entertainment apps (games) like to think they matter a lot, but they do not.
The users who are not technical pay for computers that come in boxes and already work. The users who are technical (like actually technical) contribute with code, documentation, and genuinely helping other users.
The people who can boot Linux or BSD from a USB stick on the latest Framework laptop love to share their opinions and think their passionate opinions on their favorite laptop matter (they do not).
In the big picture the middle of the bell curve really does not matter all (with exception to entertainment app (game) developers) and all they do is make a bunch of noise posting extremely low quality content to PC gamer forums and Youtube.
GrapheneOS aims to move beyond a hardened fork of the Android Open Source Project. Achieving the goals requires moving away from relying on the Linux kernel
It needs to move towards a microkernel-based model
GrapheneOS is already ahead of the curve on this issue.
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Because Redox is implemented in Rust, the “hard” parts have already been partly done or done, and Redox draws mindshare from talent who care deeply that Redox is inspired by SeL4 and Plan9, Redox will continue to have progression within a small number years that takes other systems decades.
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When you eventually use Redox, all of the powerful functionality and advantages you get with Qubes will just be there, for you and users who are not technical alike. You will just use your computer and maybe interact with some extra options under the “advanced” tab or interact with the system’s APIs if you choose to write scripts instead.
