The Z690 only has a single PS/2 port. I don’t know if it’s possible to use mouse and keyboard at the same time, but you can use a PS/2 keyboard.
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Perfect! That way the user can’t log themselves out of the system when configuring sys-usb.
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@pietrushnic I’m looking for the number of USB controllers available on the board. Just realized that you submitted a HCL report so I’ll get the number from there. No action on your side needed.
@novacustom please submit a HCL report.
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For some reason Thinkpad T16 (and maybe other modern Thinkpads too) have non-usb keyboard and touchpad. So, even if everything went south with sys-usb - user still has ability to type and use mouse, it’s awesome. Does it mean it’s like PS/2 inside?
About PS/2 as a requirement - I think it can be outdated for 2 reasons:
- Even if something wrong with
sys-usbor other usb qube, one can boot without qubes autostart (adding kernel parameter via the boot menu) and have mouse and keyboard back for fixing stuff. - Having 2-3 USB controllers is more valuable than having PS/2, especially if one can use one of them exclusively for input to
dom0, like for keyboard and mouse. My opinion.
So, that means: everybody, please provide information about number of USB Controllers (as @Sven asked) and even better if you can provide information which is what - “like first controller is USB2 with keyboard, touchpad, fingerprint and wifi, second is USB3 for 2 usb ports on the side of the laptop” and etc.
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@Sven I’m having trouble updating the list.
Would you be so kind to update the NovaCustom NV41 Series on the list, please? It is Qubes OS certified and we ship it pre-installed. The HCL reports mentions the number 3 under usb:
Qubes-HCL-Notebook-NV4xPZ-20230510-100826.yml (851 Bytes)
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Can you provide full output of lspci -vv and lsusb -v from dom0 and information about how usb ports, wifi, bluetooth, touchpad, keyboard, other stuff are connected to these USB Controllers?
Maybe I’m doing something wrong, but lsusb -v doesn’t give any output.
You can find the lspci -vv output here: lspci-v.log (12.8 KB)
… information about how usb ports, wifi, bluetooth, touchpad, keyboard, other stuff are connected to these USB Controllers?
- I think you need the schematic diagrams of the hardware. Even though we’d love to publish this, we are only allowed to share this with customers on request. If you bought a NovaCustom laptop, please write us an email with the request for the schematic diagrams.
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Not diagrams. My point being that 3 USB Controllers may mean actually 1 for the purposes of using it in Qubes OS. I saw situations like that: when all usb ports on the laptop are connected to a single controller, that it is also responsible for “wifi/bluetooth/touchpad/keyboard” - it is like having 1 controller after all, because other 2 controllers can do some internal stuff (thunderbolt/pci), that user cannot physically use anyway.
To match connectors and devices (wifi, bluetooth, touchpad, keyboard) with USB Controllers you can use manual tests like @unman proposed here: How to figure out which USB port goes to which USB controller? - #28 by unman
I am so insistent about this because it does matter for Qubes OS users, and users should definitely know what will they get as a certified laptop to avoid disappointments (congratulations on certification, by the way!).
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Done.
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Quite unfortunate that no information about what USB controllers and USB sockets can be used separately on NovaCustom NV41 Series was provided. I described the way to check and why it may really matter.
I would like to propose adding the Framework laptops to the recommended list. I have been using one (original 11th Gen Intel) for more than a year with QubesOS and have gone through all the growing pains with it. I have posted my suggestions and guide here on GitHub for new users to Qubes OS on Framework. Initially there were some challenges with hardware recognition in the Xen kernel for wifi and s3 sleep especially, but at this point from my experience and the HCL reports, it seems that even the newest 13th Gen Intel version is working nearly perfectly.
I’m happy to test any needed functionality or other things that might be needed to recommend it. In general, I think the philosophy behind the company is admirable and compatible with the majority of the audience of Qubes. Really the only drawback I can think of at this time is that they are NOT supporting Coreboot likely for the next couple years 
, though it is something they have stated publicly they would like to support and likely will when AMD OpenSIL comes to fruition.
About Thinkpad T16 Gen 1
After making additional test and posting HCL I am planning to propose Thinkpad T16 Gen 1 to be in a recommended list.
Because it finally works with modern kernel and updated Qubes OS almost flawlessly:
- It can have up to 48 GB of RAM.
- I have no video, network, bluetooth, audio issues (but further testing may be required).
- It supports S3 for suspend and it finally works well (it was not working due errors in Linux kernel).
- Fans are working great (quiet, silent on idle) with
thinkfan, quite a problem on Qubes OS on many laptops when fans are noisy compared to GNU/Linux. - No video glitches (because Qubes OS finally works fine with Intel Gen 11/12 CPUs).
- It has PS/2 keyboard and thinkpoint (like mouse). It is deal-maker for some. BOTH keyboard and mouse works even if you screw the sys-usb completely!
- Available for purchas. With different screen resolutions and etc.
Currently I see one not fixed problem - touchpad is not working properly after suspend in have of cases, the second suspend fixes the touchpad. But I have the similar problem on GNU/Linux (e.g. Ubuntu), so it is not Qubes OS related bug. And once again trackpoint works flawlessly as mouse in all situations.
About NovaCustom NV41 Series
I do not have the certified NovaCustom NV41 Series laptop, but to my opinion currently it looks a bit shady.
- I also do not think we have “multiple community members” with this laptop on the forum to confirm it works as expected in sophisticated cases users face.
- The owners of
NovaCustom NV41 Seriesare not providing enough information about their laptop and do not reply to questions asked. Does not look good to me. - I have not seen really detailed report for
NovaCustom NV41 Series, only HCL and some praising comments that everything works from the product owner.
I think if I had it I would have found issues with proper testing and different use cases.
So, for me personally NovaCustom NV41 Series is a less reliable than modern Thinkpad T16 Gen 1 that I know more about. So if I had a choice which one to take - I am not sure that I would go with the certified NovaCustom NV41. At least not until more information is provided by real buyers on the forum.
The only practical advantage of NovaCustom NV41 Series that I see is coreboot support. I am not sure how important it would be for me personally, but for the majority of users it probably does not matter. That is why coreboot is not a requirement for the recommended list, as we see there are models without it in the list.
…since we added suspend to the requirements with R4.1, this would currently disqualify the T16. Maybe it’s fixed with R4.2?
I mistyped, in “half” of cases. And in cases the fix is - suspend and resume again. It is advice from Arch wiki, so I do not think that the bug is Qubes OS related. Note that on Kubuntu the touchpad is broken completely after suspend with no recovery, and this laptop is CERTIFIED by Ubuntu officially.
About working on R4.2: I do not know. I think it will be fix in GNU/Linux upstream eventually.
So, we currently have 1 laptop on the recommended list that can be bought new nowadays (I do not take into account all old models with old generation Intel CPUs).
And this 1 laptop lacks basic information what is really working and what is not, no proper and deep testing reported by any forum user. And the seller is not providing additional information about USB controllers and does not answer questions.
And we also have no hope to add any additional modern laptops to the list because there are no S3 mode on modern laptops except several Thinkpads that require workarounds.
I think, under these circumstances such list is not serving the purpose of its existence, and nobody should make a choice solely based on it. I would prefer to buy a modern laptop that is recommended by Qubes OS users requiring multiple workarounds instead of making choice between 1 model that is not properly tested by community. Maybe the list approach should be reconsidered?
I support @moonlitOrca’s intention and logic behind their proposal.
Oh, I forgot about Purism. OK, 2 modern laptops, both have limited market (not mass market like Thinkpads), both not sold world-wide (thus, too expensive to buy online).
Purism also have 1 USB controller and no keyboard nor mouse internally connected to PS/2, like Thinkpad T16 and some other Thinkpads have (if I am not mistaken).
I was talking about this list:
Well, Qubes team has tested it, I believe? I came to this conclusion because I saw UPDATE: 6.4.2 by fepitre-bot · Pull Request #791 · QubesOS/qubes-linux-kernel · GitHub then Linux 6.4.2 crashes sys-net on NovaCustom NV41 with Intel Killer Wi-Fi · Issue #8339 · QubesOS/qubes-issues · GitHub, so I think Qubes team has at least one NV41 laptop running their openqa test suite to make sure it would stay on the certified list.
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