@akbertram you’ve got mail from @blunix.com
In relation to this thread and the things discussed above: we (Blunix) have decided to donate 10% of all revenue from Qubes OS-related contracts that originate from qubes-os.org domains to the Qubes project.
Its been two weeks since this thread was last updated - I thought I’d give it a bump.
As so far nothing has happend, I would like to propose the following: I’ll create a new thread for listing freelancers and companies that provide qubes consulting. The first post in the thread will always be updated if somebody new wants to join that list. This way companies and individuals looking for qubes consulting will find the thread on google and look at the list right away.
I think we should just sort it alphabetically (I’m open for any other suggestions) and I’m totally not saying that because my company starts with the letter B x)
I think we should also sort by countries, pretty much similar to this: Debian -- Debian Consultants, so that the companies looking for consultants can find what they are looking for very fast.
I think a listing should look like the following example. Please let me know what you guys think.
Dear company or person looking for Qubes OS consulting,
this list of freelancers and companies is curated by the Qubes OS community and is not managed or verified by the Qubes OS team. The freelancers and companies listed below have no official affiliation with Qubes OS. Qubes OS disclaims any responsibility for the actions of the freelancers and companies included in this list. Anyone who wishes to offer consulting services related to Qubes OS is welcome to get listed here.
Name: Na’vi IT Consulting Limited
Country: Pandora, Asia
Website: https://www.blue-tall-people-it-consulting.com
Rate: 130 grams of unobtanium per hour
Contact options:
Our security-focused IT consulting company is renowned for its extraterrestrial expertise. Specializing in Qubes OS, we help your company seamlessly integrate Qubes and even assist in running Windows within Qubes when needed. Our team ensures your systems are secure and efficient, making your tech experience smooth and worry-free (yes ChatGPT I’m not that creative).
The other way this could be done it totally internal. The qubes organization certifying a small group of people to do support and then renting out those people at a fee. This would keep a much tighter loop on who is shipping product to end users. No offense but if cubes is what it advertises it’s self to be then every major country in the world has got it’s sights on qubes. Just like other privacy OS’s.
The qubes organization certifying a small group of people to do support and then renting out those people at a fee.
This would mean that Qubes OS would be responsible for the actions of the consultants, which is what they explicitly don’t want as stated by the Qubes team above.
There is no secure way to certify people as people are not code. Certifications for people in IT is commonly only a way to print money imho (as in “IT-Security certified specialist and so on”).
Even if - certification takes time. In order for the Qubes OS team to invest this time, this would cost money. This would mean that only people who can pay enough would be able to be certified, which would exclude several brilliant minds which are very capable of providing Qubes OS consulting.
This would keep a much tighter loop on who is shipping product to end users.
It would not guarantee that it could not be abused, as its consulting and not coding with git pull requests where a second person or a whole group of people reads the code.
In the practical world, where you have calls with customers, explain to them what qubes is, implement solutions and answer calls in emergencies, there is no practical way to double check that.
No offense but if cubes is what it advertises it’s self to be then every major country in the world has got it’s sights on qubes. Just like other privacy OS’s.
Yes, but I don’t see how this is related to having a list of consultants, where on top of the list it states in large letters that Qubes OS itself is not responsible for the actions nor associated with the consultants.
Half the planet runs Debian on servers, and every paranoid organization runs OpenBSD and they both have lists of consultants (where it reads on top: these companies do not represent us, but only do consulting).
Right now the state is the following: Everyone with >1k usd to buy a few backlinks from tech sites and a webdesigner can rank in the top 10 on google for “qubes os consulting” (its pretty easy to rank for this phrase, this thread ranks on the top atm).
Upside: none
Downside: none
If there was a list similar to what debian and openbsd have (linked above):
Upsides:
Downside: none (compared to the current state)
Your right the security is no better really. But is it ever. The point being that could be a Revenue source for Qubes all the same. An, it is there choice in the end. I wouldn’t know what to choose if you hired me to figure it out.
They could even do both. I am just trying to state that there are other choices.
I have an idea that I think may make everyone happy. @tannerlambert, we can use the idea you mentioned about using the forum, and link to this from the QubesOS website under consulting. However, when the link is clicked, it brings the user to a page on the official website with a short explanation something like this:
CAUTION:
Because of <whatever reason Qubes doesn’t offer consulting; ex.: the small size of the Qubes team>, the QubesOS team currently does not offer official consulting services. Due to the security-oriented nature of this project, we also cannot endorse any specific consultants. However, we do provide this link to a centralized list of self-appointed QubesOS consultants in our forum. There are NO official agreements, affiliations, or guarantees regarding the QubesOS team and these consultants, and this list is provided as a conveneince for businesses and customers. You use this resource understanding that there is no relationship between the QubesOS team and these consultants, and therefore QubesOS cannot guarantee the security, reputation, or practices of these vendors. You use this resource at your own risk. <link>
Obviously, better wording and some scary colors would be used, but the idea is that the link is at the bottom of this warning, making it clear that this is not the QubesOS team, but merely a service of convenience to a known list where everybody can go. This way, businesses have a firm point of contact, and QubesOS’ reputation is protected because it is clear what this is.
@XMachina +1, that was basically my initial idea 
As one of the certified Qubes OS vendors, we frequently receive mails from our customers who look for consulting services for Qubes OS, which we do not provide ourselves except hardware related questions.
I also agree on @XMachina’s statement about the caution message.
I believe it would be very beneficial to the project to have a list of consultanting companies and service providers. The advantage I see is that it would make Qubes more accessible to business customers, which would help to generate more funds for the project.
Whoops, forgive me. I guess after reading through it all the ideas got a little jumbled together. The main idea I was trying to posit was to have all the Qubes website consultation links link to a big enough caution on the official website, and then to the actual place, which would not be on the Qubes website. Like a bridge of sorts, to avoid reputation issues. But I didn’t mean to propagate your ideas as my own, my bad.
I sometimes copy the link of large threads into ChatGPT and prompt “give me all the opinions”
and then to the actual place, which would not be on the Qubes website
Which would require an extra click on the customers side, meaning that the chance is higher that people won’t call
which would not be on the Qubes website
As this ideas main aspect is to have a LARGE disclaimber on the top I don’t see the benefit from that. The customer reads the disclaimer and then goes to another page - is the disclaimer there too?
Having it on the something like qubes-os dot org slash consultants.html would give the highest click-to-buy ratio. Every additional required click is a way to have less people call.
If qubes helps us (consultants) we can help qubes (donations) - thats the central idea behind a external consulting list.
Of course, the Qubes OS team voiced concerns: which I partially understand: I see the reputation Qubes OS has to uphold 100%, but as described and explained I do not see an impact of this - even if a bad player manages to smuggle itself onto that list and gets discovered by mistreating a customer, as the disclaimer states, that is not something Qubes can control and that is something the customer understands the EXACT same way as if the customer googles “Qubes OS consulting”. The only thing the list changes is the positive effects, the negative effects remain the same.
As said above, everyone can rank for qubes os consulting, its a simple keyword.
I see it from a business and marketing perspective - the more companies buy qubes, the more customer companies run a reasonably secure OS, the more consluting companies can make money from that, the more donations for the Qubes OS project. I think its obvious that everyone who invests the time it takes to learn Qubes to be able to provide consulting is of course also interested in the Qubes project flourishing.
Like a bridge of sorts, to avoid reputation issues
Thats what the disclaimer would be for, and printing that twice (on the “send” page and on the “destination” page doesn’t make things more “secure”. It would only serve generating less money.
But I didn’t mean to propagate your ideas as my own, my bad.
All good Everyones input is welcome in this thread, even if it does not mirror my opinion of course I highly appreciate your input and the healthy discussion about this topic! A big thank you to everyone participating in this discussion and to the Qubes OS team for putting this topic into consideration!
@XMachina put yourself in the shoes of a customer. Say, for the last 15 years you invested your life into building a company, and for the last 5 years it really took of. You now have clients with sensitive data that you NEED to protect.
You google around and find “secure OS comparisons”. You find OpenBSD, which you deem to unpractical, Pure OS, which you deem to be a not secure enough, and you find Qubes, which fits your needs and also lets you keep that one windows tool you can’t get rid of in your sales and finance team.
Qubes OS is DESIGNED to serve exactly these peoples needs - the idea behind Qubes OS is to make reasonably secure workstations accessible to people who need them.
The current downside is that the “consulting for qubes field” and google results are a bit unordered. This IS A GIANT BARRIER for such companies. They are not security experts like most people in this thread. They rely on what they find on google and then it is their job to make a decision.
If they read the disclaimer they will understand whats going on, because the people who will read the consulting page make such decisions for a living. They daily make decisions like this, and everyone knows the risks involved when including a consulting company or freelancer.
I do that every day as well.
There is one more argument to this all: I myself run a GmbH, thats a “limited” kind of company in Germany. If i “mess” with a customer I go to prison, because I am legally liable for what my company does (if it does anything bad intentionally). It would of course also destroy my company. Even if I am a freelancer, I am still legally liable. Its not like that I can just go out and install spyware and then have the blame on the Qubes OS project.
When I hire a company for a sensitive project and intend to give them data I research that company before. I am based in the EU, most of our (my companies) clients are based in the EU. It took years to build a reputation to handle the projects we handle now - even if my company is listed on qubes/consultants, that does not give enough (any?) reputation alone to have someone give me root@ to their company, especially if there is a big fat red disclaimer on top of that list, like there is on debian and openbsd’s lists. The people buying Qubes consulting will still do their research before giving me access to their company. And after that they remain with the risk.
If the list would change anything in that regard, it would be to reduce that risk, as, other than google results, it would be managed by a human and not by googles ranking algorithm. It would be able to seed out obvious flaws, which googles algorithm does not.
99% of the companies and freelancers that are interested in consulting are just legitimate companies and people who are simply interested in providing this service.
The rest are criminals, and dealing with them is a natural part of life and a natural part of being a CEO / CTO. When I click consulting on fiverr, or when somebody gives my company root@ to their servers, they understand the risk, because thats the kind of decisions they make for a living. Being a CEO / CTO is a lot of risk management.
When I go out at night I understand that there is a risk of being jumped. That can happen and is a natural part of life. When that happens, I blame the criminals, not the people who build the street.
Well … if there is no quality control and/or assurance, then there is little use of the list. Isn‘t it? It saves time. Maybe. At the maximum.
But most $CUSTOMERS I had the pleasure to deal with won‘t say „yeah, sure, guarantees aside … I could have googled and now I saved some time“. They will ask, which one to pick and why there is no numbered rating.
The one customer who has a bad experience with that kind of list (while others were satisfied over years!) will complain loud and vocal. And he will ask, why there is no quality assurance. It will be that kind of person that buys security as a product.
Why would anyone do this?
If you want security (and it concerns any dimension of the word), read the docs and do as much as you can yourself. Start with googling if necessary. If you want security, forget „ease“ and „time saving“.
whats the benefit?
In a nutshell:
for a more detailed answer please see the posts above, where the question has been answered and discussed excessively.
As the thread is very long, I’d recommend just copying the URL into chatgpt and asking it to summarize the thread.
But most $CUSTOMERS I had the pleasure to deal with
Did you work in consulting for Qubes OS projects? Can you give us some anonymized infos about what you did?
which one to pick
most likely one that is listed under the country / continent they reside in, as for the clients I had for high security requirement projects, they generally don’t hire from outside of their legal zones (as in german customers will first go with german companies / freelancers, then with ones from the EU and then from the west and will most likely not do business with companies from the east). Because of this, debian and openbsd’s lists are sorted by countries.
After this, depending on your legal requirements, some companies are not allowed to work with freelancers and might look for a company that can handle the legal ramifications of human error, or simply because they need a team for a larger project.
And so on.
I run a IT company and there is a bit of a process to choosing whom I hire when I outsource work, but it essentially boils down to that.
will complain loud and vocal…
…about the company he had an issue with, not the list itself. When I have an issue with a freelancer or company I found on the openbsd list, I do not complain about the list itself or openbsd having such a list. If I hire a bad consultant off that list I might complain in the openbsd forum / mailing list.
After that it remains to discuss what to do with that information. It might simply be an enemy of yours who does not like your dog barking at night.
And he will ask, why there is no quality assurance
No, because he read the disclaimer on top of the list and because quality assurance is not realistic.
Every CEO who ever hired a company or freelancer from a list, such as the OpenBSD consulting list, knows that - first off because its written on top, and second because there is no such thing as quality assurance for a list of freelancers and companies that provide consluting services. If they say they do its a fake “IT certification thing” that will not keep out bad players either.
Neither will relying ranking on google, which btw, as described above, is UTTERLY easy for “qubes os consulting” at the moment.
It will be that kind of person that buys security as a product.
I dont follow - what kind of person?
Every company / freelancers / journalist / human rights lawyer that does not work in IT security since MANY years has to buy IT security, because UNDERSTANDING IT security takes many years. Expecting potential clients to learn this themselves is unrealistic and also very dangerous, as beginners make many mistakes.
Why would anyone do this?
Because they run companies and have problems with industrial espionage / totalitarian governments / human rights violations and alike and want to implement Qubes OS in order to defend against such issues.
read the docs and do as much as you can yourself
If that were a thing, there would be no consultants for IT in general, as you can teach yourself any topic in IT, not just security. This is not realistic however.
Companies commonly specialize in one thing and buy other things. If you specialize in writing software for a specific usecase, it is not realistic to “learn” IT security and expect a good result within a reasonable timeframe. There are people in this thread that do have that kind of knowledge and can help such companies acchieve the goal of configuring and then using Qubes reasonably securely.
Start with googling if necessary. If you want security, forget „ease“ and „time saving“.
This is not realistic for companies, human rights activists, human rights lawyers, journalists and so on. As a german I could not help myself but make this comparison (we compare everything to cars for whatever reason ) - you could also say “if you want to drive to work learn how to fix your own car”.
Companies and freelancers, journalists, human rights activists, lawyers, whisteblowers and alike have a RIGHT to reasonable IT security! Qubes OS is not a snakeoil product. Client companies and people can not decide themselves what is snake oil and what is not, because it is not their area of expertise.
Makeing Qubes OS more popular, more accessible and easier to start with by providing consulting is important in order for people and companies to have better IT security, which is one of the primary goals of Qubes OS - to provide IT security to people who need it, not only to those who understand it.
They should NOT ONLY be entitled to have this level of security by learning something themselves, and then start relying on it without fully understanding it and makeing mistakes that may cost them their companies, their freedom or even their lifes.
Qubes OS is a wonderful project that helps to protect companies and individuals around the globe, but it is not easy to understand for non technical people. “Learning it yourself” because you need it right now will lead to potentially drastic mistakes.
A list of consultants will connect companies and such people with experienced Qubes OS consulting companies and freelancers, which helps generate additional funding for Qubes OS which further enhances the usability and security of Qubes OS. Everyone wins.
OpenBSD, which is an equally security focused project as Qubes OS, came to the same conclusion, which is why they have such a list: OpenBSD: Support and Consulting
You are absolutely right about fundamental rights etc. But it’s about equality of opportunity. IMHO, that is. “Security” in a strict sense includes trust (as well as availability and defences). In my opinion, you can’t have security (again, in the strict sense) if you’re completely dependent on someone else. At least you can’t judge someone (or the quality of someone). (The less you know, the harder this will be with any uncurated lists of supposed specialists).
And as a German I’m sorry to say: I do the breaks on all my cars and bikes myself. 
(bear in mind that I have no idea what categories would be useful, and I’d need some guidance from someone as to their values)
| Basic Info | |
|---|---|
| Name: | (Company/Individual/Group Name, Pseudonym, etc.) |
| Logo: | <insert image here> |
| Website(s): | https://www.example.com |
| qubesmsgfg7qzegannosz5opgyq3tr4u3waagsonqcthjwoxivexs7id.onion | |
| Location: | Ross Ice Shelf, Antarctica |
| Main Contact: |
vilbert.jims@example.com |
| Products/Services |
|---|
| Product | Price | per | Unit | Conditions | Notes |
| Quote | $25 USD | per | Unit | Upfront | No low-ballers |
| Remote Maintenance | $55 USD | per | Hour | Upfront | Requires stabled internet connection |
| In-Person Support | $5,000 USD | per | Day | Upfront | This includes transport, accommodation and living expenses |
| Emergency Call-out Fee | $750 USD | per | Callout | ||
| Vanilla Qubes OS Install & Setup | $15 USD | per | Machine | Must be physical hardware | Comes with 1 month of support |
| Hardware Upgrade | $250 USD | per | Machine | Cost of Parts Not Included | Can be upgraded remotely |
| Detailed Info |
|---|
| Type of Entity: | |||||||
| Individual / Freelancer | Business / Corporation | ||||||
| Group / Syndicate | Government Entity | ||||||
| Other: | <description of other> |
||||||
| Headquartered In (Jurisdiction): |
Country / Territory |
||||||
| Main Market(s): | Main Market(s) |
||||||
| Specializing in: | |||||||
| Military | Government | ||||||
| Corporate | Compliance | ||||||
| Software Development |
Security Research |
||||||
| Networking | Hardware | ||||||
| Penetration Testing |
Provisioning | ||||||
| Other: | <description of other> |
||||||
| Entity Introduction: |
Click to Expandlorem ipsum blah blah blah blah blah lorem ipsum blah blah blah blah blah CHANGE THIS BEFORE YOU POST!!! lorem ipsum blah blah blah blah blah lorem ipsum blah blah blah blah blah lorem ipsum blah blah blah blah blah |
||||||
| Timezone of Office: |
Fiji / Nadi (GMT +12) |
||||||
| Number of Employees: |
<number or "N/A"> |
||||||
| Experience with Qubes OS: | <years> |
||||||
| Accreditation(s) / Certification(s): |
|||||||
| EU-certified | ISO 9660 | ||||||
| CloudFlare | US NIST | ||||||
| Other | <description of other> |
| Additional Contact Info |
|---|
| Main Contact | Notes | ||||||
| Phone: | +64 271 465 778 | Do Not Call on Saturdays | |||||
| Signal: | +86 2224 283746 | Outsourced | |||||
| Other Contacts | |||||||
| Matrix: | @chickenlittle |
||||||
| Mastodon: | @icanhaqubes@mastodon.social | ||||||
| WhatsApp: | +49 5261 71169 | ||||||
| IRC: | irc.example.com /nick piano7 | ||||||
| Signal: | +7 4475 2736 | ||||||
| E-Mail: | vilbert.jims@example.com |
||||||
| PGP: |
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=nUop
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
| Important Info |
|---|
| All our data is based in The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea |
| - We can only provide consultancy to individuals inside the DPRK |
| Some other random notes |
Looks good to me.
This now a thing. Thanks everyone for their input!
Pinging some people in the thread since there have been developments but some may have missed them (see previous post).
I think the table should have an extra information telling if there is a company behind or if it’s an individual without a proper structure? Depending on what you are looking for, one may be more interesting than the other. Someone looking for help about privacy may prefer an individual and pay in crypto, while a company may prefer another company as this provides guarantees.
Guarantees, or the option to work with formal invoicing as an additional example.