Does not look like community recommended list. Almost all laptops from this short list are certified ones, Purism with preinstalled OS and several outdated by 6-15 years. Why would we have 2 lists of certified laptops, one of each named “community recommended”? Also, certified models are not easy to buy for some countries and users, because those are not mass-market, unlike e.g. Thinkpads.
I saw several reports of Thinkpads with Intel 11/12 gen that work great on Qubes OS, but for some non-inessential reason they were not accepted. Mine included.
For me it will be decisive. And whole the point of compare tables is that user does not have to manually search for all specs to compare them manually. Max possible memory is must-have column.
I see maximum RAM is important for you. For me, it is also important. But:
For many users (including me), the maximum RAM on the currently available CPUs are enough.
What would you put there?
a. Maximum RAM specified by CPU manufacturer? This can be easy automatable, but it also has low added value, as you can easily look it up in Intel Ark or AMD’s specification.
b. Maximum RAM specified by MoBo manufacturer? Somewhat harder and in my experience, this is often irelevant. My last two laptop MoBos (both Dell) worked with double of maximum officially supported RAM by the MoBo, because CPU supports it.
c. Someone would test what maximum RAM it can accept. This would be great to have. The problem is, someone would have to do it. I don’t think this is realistic with community-maintained HCL
That is, if you have a realistic suggestion how to obtain and maintain the information, I don’t mind if the HCL has it. I am still not convinced that many people would appreciate it, but it is OK for me. (I am not the one who decides, though.)
I see your point, thank you. Please note, that selecting laptop is much bigger deal, because it can have:
irreplaceable wifi module with major issues on Linux/Qubes.
irreplaceable bluetooth module with major issues on Linux/Qubes.
soldered memory, one or all slots, so Max Mem can be == initial Mem.
and etc.
Maybe you have in mind desktop PCs, not laptops, that is why you do not value some specs?
About Max RAM, I would put Max RAM from specs of laptop (like from Lenovo, not Intel Ark). And in case somebody reports that bigger amount is working than it will be change to a bigger value in the table with additional *-cite.
Once again, yes, for each laptop users can search for specs themselves, but the point is that user can open table, select year, like “from 2021”, select Max RAM, like “32GiB or more” and have relevant list of laptops.
OK, I considered soldered RAM as something exceedingly rare, but it might be more common today. In this case, I agree that it might have some value, expecially given the memory requirements of Qubes OS.
OTOH, how would you obtain the info?
a. If this information could be obtained automatically in qubes-hcl-report (I doubt a bit), then OK.
b. If you know how to obtain the information from some vendors in an automated way (API, web scrapping, …), then it sounds reasonable.
c. If the way would be requesting users to check the manual, then I doubt many users would do that. Then, you would get an additional column, which would be mostly blank.
I would not be surprised if there are more modern laptops with soldered RAM than without it.
From specs by table/list maintainer and/or the user reporting. It is not possible to find out automatically by qubes-hcl-report.
I user is too lazy, their report would be added to the table, it is a community recommended list after all. Blank cells will not be allowed for such basic specs. No info, no recommendations from community.
Currently we have the different situation, a bunch of users that eager to report and provide information, but almost empty list of laptops recommended by community (excluding certified ones).
After you spend 45 minutes installing Qubes OS. A live image with that HCL dump functionality in it would be a good incentive for more people, including hardware vendors, to provide report and, potentially, to get broader hardware support in Qubes OS.
Mine too. And that is exactly why I don’t publish HCL report. Why would I force someone to put it on any list helplessly, while compromising my privacy/anonymity.
I can’t not to have an impression that only certain models are favored.
At the end of the day: I choose each of my laptops carefully studying Qubes specs and requirements, eventually and actually never needed HCL list.
Are you more interested in resurrecting Qubes OS LiveCD support or just report tool that is possible to run without installation from any other LiveCD (e.g. from any GNU/Linux distro)?
Good question! I didn’t think of that live CD until I realized it would make for an easier entry point to coĺlecting broader hardware information for the HCL and, possibly, allow to identify alternative workig hardware for Qubes OS. However, a live CD could also ease newcomers into Qubes OS in general, so it is not a bad idea from that standpoint either. And the immutable medium would also provide useful properties too (similar to Tails).
But this discussion would need a different thread to avoid derailing the HCL one.
I made a draft of the list of steps that user should check for entering the future RECOMMENDED list (HCL is also required).
Not all steps can be applicable, for the skipped steps the reason they were why skipped should be provided.
Installation
Any problems with installation
Was latest kernel required?
Were some additional kernel options required?
Basic Input
Keyboard
External USB mouse [if possible to check]
Touch-pad
Touch-pad supports “tap as click” and scrolling with 2 fingers works,
Display brightness change shortcuts,
Sound volume shortcuts,
Keyboard led and keyboard brightness change shortcuts,
Output of xinput --list from terminal of dom0
Check if keyboard and/or touchpad is PS/2 connected (how to check)
Internet and bluetooth
Ethernet cable connection - works out of the box or actions were required?
Ethernet cable connection - speed
Wifi connection - works out of the box or actions were required?
Wifi connection - speed, is reliable over the time?
Bluetooth - works out of the box or actions were required?
Bluetooth - shows devices, connection process works, sound output or copying works.
Suspend
Suspend/Resume works - works out of the box or actions were required?
Does resume breaks WiFi, if it does, how to recover it?
Does resume breaks Bluetooth, if it does, how to recover it?
Video [increase VCPU to the qube before test]
Fullscreen and windowed video playback of youtube - 720p/1080p/2K/4K in Firefox. Does it drop frames?
Video file playback of file using mpv/mplayer/smplayer - 1080p? Higher resolutions and bitrates?
Multiple displays configuration works (using available DP/Thunderbolt, HDMI or other video ports,
Audio
Speakers (sound playback) (was sys-audio used?),
Head-phones via 3.5" jack (works, automatically turns off speakers?)
Sound output via HDMI
Audio-optical (S/PDIF) output
Fans
Are fans silent on idle?
Are fans noisier than on Windows/Linux?. If they are, was thankfan or similar software tried?
While this is great and extremely detailed draft (thanks for it!), I’d ask myself would it motivate user to do such exhaustive test?
The more sensitive question: I can imagine new user thinking to switch to Qubes and, naturally checking such a list, only to find out there is practically no computer without issues with Qubes on it, or not affordable or available. How many of those issue stated in HCL would come from users not experienced enough to check properly all the entries (those not automated)?
Even if it could be confirmed it’s human error prone free, how would new users know what is essential enough to use Qubes? For example, would not-working touchpad frighten new user?
For me, for example, it was always most (if not only) important to choose the strongest affordable compatible CPU, as many as possible USB controllers (and recently TB, of course), and to be able to upgrade over max RAM and storage (being aware that max declared isn’t usually max possible, because of the non-existent bigger single bank storage at the moment of releasing MB/CPU on the market).
Everything else, I’m more than ready to compensate one way or another or to accept as complete trade-off. Even BIOS that you didn’t mention, isn’t an issue for me - my choice analog to, for example, devs’ choice to use untrusted distro (whichever) for dom0.
The HCL entry could link to a forum wiki post for that model, which contains links to all the HCL reports for that model. When someone submits a new HCL report for an already existing model, after their report is accepted the wiki post get updated with a link to their report, and their thread with the report gets locked.
You would still have all the HCL reports, with links from the main thread. The HCL would only have a single entry for each model, and there would be a single thread for discussing each model.
It would make the HCL easier to read, it would be easier to find existing information on the model, and there would be an obvious place to ask questions about the model.
I think there will be no issue with that, the community is great, people are ready to spend time and provide information valuable for others:
I myself filled the HCL with similar level of details, including instructions for other users: HCL - Apple MacBook Pro (11,1)
Other users also provided a lot of details in their HCLs and forum posts in the recommended list topic (but still failed to get to the list for too strict criteria that should be lifted).
And users that are new to Qubes OS and not advanced enough to check the list, or ones who are not willing to proceed, can send HCL reports in usual way without additional info. These HCL reports are almost useless to my opinion for the community.
The result should be present as a big table that shows that almost everything works for recommended models. It is not a problem that something is not working or requires script/workaround if user knows it in advanced. Not all laptops work perfectly well even with GNU/Linux.
Models, that are not meet basic criteria of having something essential (like having VT-d, or sufficient memory) will not present int he recommended list at all.
About touchpad: user can decide themselves. You maybe do not value it that much but maybe some users choose the device based on how good touchpad is. So, it simply should be in the table to choose.
I think we should consider to direct users first to confirm if their computer works with Linux at all, for example here:
If they can’t find their specific model there, they should search for each specific part of it on the same site:
And then, and only then to come to our Qubes OS HCL, because previous lists are basically Linux HCLs. Experienced user here can confirm that not that rarely some devices weren’t working with Qubes because they actually never worked with Linux at all in the first place (no driver, or whatever). Sometime later, we should consider to encourage whoever to post their HCL reports to the site above, or maintainers to export whole QUbes OS HCL there. That could be a way to further promote Qubes.
At least that’s how I researched for my eventual choices.
I don’t really understand the core criticism of the Community Recommended Computers. Are you saying that there are many laptops working well with Qubes that are not on the list? Do you have data to confirm that? If yes, those computers will be included. Asking too much (like flawless support of multiple displays) may result in almost zero candidates AFAIK.
Not many, but some. And none of them are on the recommended list.
In fact, there are ZERO laptops on this list that can be bought in the usual (offline) shop or even online shop without cross-country or cross-continent delivery. No mass market means the list is almost empty from this perspective.
Yes, at least several Lenovo models work quite well, including S3 sleep. New user will never know about such cases with the current recommended list, which is almost a copy of certified list with online-delivery-available laptops only.
Nobody is asking that. It is just something that user should know in advance. About asking much: the demands of the current list are so strict that the list is almost empty (no mass market).