KDE - changing the way you use Qubes

And the audio issue turned out to be ridiculously trivial. I have a dual monitor system and no audio jack, so I was running an HDMI audio splitter. But I was doing it on the feed for the right hand monitor. Apparently only ONE monitor gets audio in HDMI when there are two or more monitors. In xfce I could get audio working again by unplugging the left hand monitor, which caused the system to send the audio to the right hand monitor (and hence to my splitter). It would retain that feed even after I reconnected the left hand monitor. In KDE, unplugging the left hand monitor sent the audio to the right hand monitor, all rightā€¦but it switched back to the left hand monitor when I plugged it back in. (That is an actual difference between the two.) Simply powering down and reconnecting things to put the splitter on the left hand monitor (whilst being careful to run each monitor off the same port it had originally) means my sound start out on the correct HDMI so now it works properly in both cases.

In fact I am now on KDE! (Or, as it seems to want to be called here, ā€œplasma.ā€ :smiley: )

Thanks again for all help, and again I apologize for my bad reactions to misunderstandings.

[edit: typo fix, nothing substantive]

1 Like

Steve
very pleased that you resolved the audio issue, and equally pleased that
you are back on KDE.

Your ā€œbad reactionsā€ were very minor, and understandable in the
circumstances. No more need be said.

1 Like

OK, either Iā€™ve really dorked things upā€¦or Iā€™ve uncovered a genuine issue.

If you have a disposable template defined, e.g., one to pop open a browser for a truly private session, over in xfce-land, it shows up in two places in the menu, provided you have the appmenus-dispvm feature set to 1. At the top of the (xfce) menu, is one that you click on to create a new disposable. Scrolling all the way down to the bottom of that menu, thereā€™s another entry that opens the DVM Template itself. OK, so far so good.

Over in KDE land, they are both visible in the menu editor but apparently only the one to open the DVM template will actually show in the menu itself when you pop it up. (There are a raft of things that list in the editor, that donā€™t show when you pop the menu up. In most cases this is a good thing.)

The entry that launches the disposable (or would if it were actually visible) is labeled ā€œDisposable:ā€ while the one that starts the disposable template is labeled ā€œTemplate (disp):ā€

Now I admit I did go hog wild with deleting and I wiped out all but one ā€œDisposable:ā€ entry (and I canā€™t figure out what to edit (by hand) to fix that, but thatā€™s another story), but the one ā€œDisposable:ā€ entry I didnā€™t delete doesnā€™t show at runtime with the menu.

There are, I guess, three of us KDE people here now (at minimum), so unman and KarlinQubes, can you see any entries in your menus that start with ā€œDisposable:ā€? Or only ā€œTemplate (disp):ā€? And what happens when you start one of those from the menu? Do you get the template machine or an actual disp1234 disposable vm?

Geez, of course I ask the question then immediately think of one more thing to look at. (And I donā€™t dare edit!)

This might not be a bug, but rather a deliberate design decision! (One that scared the bejeezus out of me for an hour or two.)

If I go into the ā€œInternetā€ menu (for instance), I find two entries for firefox associated with that qube: One that will open firefox in the DVM, the other will open it in the template.

So I can get to the individual things defined for the DVM this way, though theyā€™re located very differently than where I am used to seeing them in xfce (i.e., grouped in the DVM itself right above my AppVMs).

If youā€™re set up app-centric rather than qube centric, this probably wonā€™t even affect you. Youā€™ll see the disposable firefox right next to your non-disposable libre-writer. Iā€™m not set up that way yet, though Iā€™m probably going to evolve in that direction.

At least I can re-assemble the menu to something like what Iā€™m used to though Iā€™ll need folders to represent the DVMs.

Exactly this. Both ā€œDisposables:ā€ and ā€œTemplate (disp):ā€, and both work
exactly as expected.

The surprise was that Disposable ended up in a totally different part of the menu (as individual apps, not grouped together in a folder like AppVms are), rather than visually close to the others as would be the case on xfce. I stumbled across them a bit later, and of course copied them to where I was used to seeing them.

I was sweating bullets for a while, thinking I might have to do a total wipeout and reinstall of KDE to get back what I thought I had accidentally deleted.

Anyhow, all good now! But itā€™s something future KDE experimenters might want to know about.

I completely did away with the pre-suggested submenus. Those groupings were chaotic and unhelpful I found, assuming I am referring to the same thing. Iā€™ve just split it up in to 5-6 useful categories & am happy with the current configuration.

For the most part Iā€™ve copied individual App-VMā€™s as opposed to full AppVM menus in to the sub-menus. The only instance where Iā€™ve copied the full App-VM menu is Libreoffice in a Utilities submenu, because itā€™s already such an extensive list.

Perhaps in a more sensitive structure keeping the App-VMā€™s isolated with their own menus, further enforcing the separation would be necessary, but not in my current setup.

OK, Iā€™ve been using this for a while now, and Iā€™m thinking I can do a ā€œmy experience with KDEā€ that may or may not be helpful to future adopters.

With reference to https://github.com/unman/kde/blob/master/README.md Iā€™ll explain some things that ā€œthrew me for a loopā€ during the process. A lot of this is super-simple stuff and may seem to belabor the obviousā€¦but my perspective was in using an old, really highly modified KDE at work that I just didnā€™t want to screw with, and I have used Xubuntu for years at home. So xfce fits me like an old shoe, and perhaps being new to this I have something to add that will benefit another newbie who is just as clueless about ā€œobviousā€ [to experienced KDErs] as I was.

The first picture: What I initially thought was the ā€œdesktop iconā€ is actually a picture of a screen capture widget (lower left, the really colorful rectangle). This is not actually an immediate-post-install picture, there has been some customization done, including the screen capture widget. Of course I didnā€™t have one of these and wanted to know why it wasnā€™t there. But even the real desktop icon doesnā€™t actually appear immediately post-install for the very good reason that itā€™s to help you switch desktops and if you only have one, thereā€™s nothing for it to do. Under the picture there is text there that describes how to get to it. It actually IS visible in this picture but not very conspicuous. In this picture itā€™s actually the three faint gray rectangles between the Q menu and the colorful screen capture widget, and you can see the leftmost of the three is highlighted blue, the second has a centered darker gray rectangle inside it and the rightmost rectangle is empty. That indicates youā€™re ā€œonā€ the first desktop (and it has a maximized window), the second has a large (but not fullscreen) window on it, and the third has nothing.

I recently found another path to creating additional desktopsā€¦go into System Settings (which will be in one of the pre-canned KDE menus at the top), select ā€œWorkspace Behaviorā€ then ā€œVirtual Desktopsā€. You can then add desktops here. Desktops can be displayed in one or more rows on the toolbarā€“I mean on the panel.

Perhaps, though, thereā€™s little point to desktops. Thereā€™s an alternative called ā€œactivities.ā€ Functionally itā€™s almost like a ā€œsecond dimensionā€ of desktops. You can have, say, six activities and three desktopsā€¦but you will end up with three desktops in each activity for a total of 18.

You canā€™t make desktops look different from each otherā€“if you set one background, youā€™ve set them all. But you CAN make activities different from each other. So I basically went for one desktop and eight activities, and have a different background on each activity.

Thereā€™s an activity switcher you can put on the panel, tooā€¦it looks an awful lot like the desktop switcher, except that thereā€™s no option there to use small, small icons and stack them on the panel. (You can fake it by making the setting for desktops, which will sometimes call the activities to do the same thingā€¦but eventually the activities will revert to one row. Which is bad for me because Iā€™m running dual monitors and when laid out in one row eight activities eats up over half the panel.)

From the second and third pictures: As near as I can tell combining windows as shown is not the default behavior. You can right click on a window in the panel, select ā€œmore optionsā€ and then ā€œallow this window to be groupedā€ but once you do that, it seems to allow every window to be grouped. It doesnā€™t seem to allow for multiple groups of subcategories. I havenā€™t experimented with it much to be able to characterize it.

OK a couple more things before moving on. The pictures show a little thing clear up in the upper left. I have no idea what that is (but it looks similar to something that appears at the far lower right on the panel). It isnā€™t there by default whatever it is, so if you donā€™t see it, donā€™t fret.

And, there is a concept of a ā€œwidget.ā€ A widget can appear on a desktop or on the panel. In fact a widget is the ONLY thing that can appear on a desktop, that wonā€™t then appear on ALL of them. (And here Iā€™m referring to the activity/Desktop combo, in my prior example of three Desktops and six activites there are 18 distinct desktops. Iā€™m using capitalization to distinguish.) Like almost any windowing system you can put shortcuts on the desktopā€¦but such will appear on every Desktop in every Activity. A widget is one Desktop on One Activity.

Right clicking on an empty area of the panel (hopefully itā€™s not full!) gives you the option to add widgets. In the default configuration a big thing pops up on the left side of the screen and you can scroll and select widgets. If you click and drag the widget to the right, it will go onto your desktop. If you just double click it ends up on the panel. I donā€™t believe you can change it afterwards (except, obviously, by deleting and redoing).

OK on to the menus. As mentioned there and here, xfce menus are a hot mess, but they are actively worked by the Qubes team, so they are laid out in a somewhat rational order (though you may be just like me in not particularly liking the order they choseā€“but itā€™s a reasonable one). The problem is itā€™s all too easy to end up with so many VMs that you have to scroll on the menu, and in the current xfce implementation, you canā€™t reorganize it. (There is a vastly better version of it in the works, worth checking outā€“it has a bit of hierarchy to it to tame scrolling and also favorites.)

By contrast the KDE menu starts out a mix of chaos and senseā€¦but you can edit it.

In fact there are three menus. The default install gives you one in the lower left called the Application Launcher, with categories along the bottom (which you can configure: right mouse, ā€œconfigure application Launcherā€), This one shows colored qube icons and is a bit ā€œbig.ā€ But if you right mouse on the blue Q before the menu pops up, you can select two alternate menus (show alternatives), one is a dashboard and the other is called the ā€œApplication Menuā€ which crams more stuff into the same real estate but isnā€™t as colorful (entries at the top level show no icons, at least not for me). I havenā€™t done much with the Dashboard. I usually use the application menu but could switch to the launcher, especially if my organization becomes ā€œdeepā€ (so that there are fewer top-level menu items).

You do not have to commit to one of these. A menu is a widget. That means you can add another menu to the panel, and set it up to be one of the alternatives. (I thought about putting a menu button on the desktop, but because it IS a widget, Iā€™d have to do that eight times (1 Desktop x 8 Activities). (One thing I did paste was a shortcut to the Qube Manager, since I still use it a lot, and as a shortcut it appears everwhere.)

VERY IMPORTANT: between the 7th and eight pictures, thereā€™s a snippet of code. You have to do whatā€™s shown, or any edits you make to the menu will not stick. Youā€™ll lose them immediately. If you do this and it still doesnā€™t work, try opening a terminal and echoing $XDG_SESSION_DESKTOP. If itā€™s something other than plasma or KDE, let us know, but whatever it is, is what you need to be comparing to (thatā€™s how I discovered my system was using ā€œplasmaā€ hereā€“thanks unman for updating this).

A couple of things to note. If you ever created a disposable VM template, and set it up so that there was a menu item right next to the other qubes that would launch a disposable VM (by setting appmenus-dispvm to 1 in the featuresā€“by the way this should be on the Settings gui somewhere)ā€¦that item is now gone from this menu, and what looks like the right menu button will in fact launch the disposable template VM. The correct item got filed as an application under the precanned KDE menus that appear at the top of the menu (by default). You can drag them to a more sensible location as described.

Another thing is, trying to drag top level items doesnā€™t work. No matter what little horizontal line highlights, when I drop the item Iā€™m tying to move it ends up inside one of the other items as a submenu. If I do manage to get it rightā€¦it gets thrown at the bottom of the menu. There are arrow keys on the editor (and in the mouse context menu but thatā€™s really cumbersome) to move items. ALso, dropping an item onto a separator avoids this (since separators donā€™t have menu children).

(Separators, by the way, only appear on the applications menu, not the applications launcher.)

In any case, you have the capability to, say, group application vms together in a ā€œtop levelā€ folder. When you create the folder, youā€™ll probably want to change the icon; click on the sample shown in the editor and a window pops open with icons to choose from. I didnā€™t notice until recently that at the upper right you can select which kinds of choices are available. Standard Qubes icons have been built into this gallery.

The possibility of customizing menus by activity has been dangled. I have no idea how to do THAT, but I did figure out a less cumbersome way to put shortcuts on desktops that are unique.

Add the Quick Launcher widget to your desktop. And add a folder view widget as well. in dom0 create a folder (I named mine Folders); inside of this create a folder for each AppVM you might want a shortcut for.

Then, go into the application menu, and instead of using it to start the qube or apps within it, send to desktop. Once youā€™ve got everything you might want to do with a vm, configure the folder view widget to point to the folder you just created, then select the desktop icons and drag them into the folder view. Select move. That moves the shortcuts to the folder, off the desktop (where they, being shortcuts, would appear on every desktop). You can then drag things from the folder view to your new app launcher. You can title the app launcher to the name of the qube. Result: You have a white box that groups a bunch of shortcuts to one AppVM together, visually. (You can then get rid of the folder view widget without harming anything. Just DONā€™T delete the actual folder it was pointing to!)

No doubt you can think of variations on this that will suit you better. And thereā€™s a decent chance Iā€™ll decide I like something better. This is a journey, not a destination.

1 Like

Iā€™m accumulating a lot of ā€œoffline linuxā€ VMsā€¦basically, a debian 11 machine that runs one app and has no network access. By personal convention those qubes are all blue. Iā€™ll likely end up grouping these in a folder on my menu, since itā€™s getting tall enough to need to scroll (and the app menu doesnā€™t scroll!).

I prefer keyboard-centric workflows. How is KDEā€™s support for custom keybindings?

Thanks for this Steve.
Just a few comments.

First, almost all the screenshots you reference came from a thread on
4.0, and there are definitely differences in 4.1.

In 4.1, itā€™s no longer possible to group - well, you can, but they group
under qubes-guid, which is no longer very useful.

I donā€™t understand this. You can customise the desktop(s) on a per
activity basis, with separate widgets, links and folders. Thatā€™s the
whole point in activities.

If you go in to edit mode on the panel (Right-click->EditPanel), then
you can access the settings on any widgets, and configure them as you
will.

Also, you didnā€™t mention keyboard shortcuts - KDE allows you to specify
shortcuts for most window/desktop/activity controls , as well as
qube launchers, and custom scripts. If you prefer to use the kboard,
this is excellent. But if not, there are many GUI features and mouse
controls. Itā€™s your choice.

If I put a shortcut on a desktopā€¦it appears on all Activities. (To be clear and try to avoid the possibility that weā€™re thinking of two different things without realizing it, Iā€™m talking about going into the menu, right clicking on an item and having it put on the desktop. I believe that creates a ā€œshortcutā€ or ā€œlinkā€ to the actual functionality.) If thereā€™s a way to not have that happen, Iā€™d love to know, because I habitually double click and widgets activate on a single click (and I couldnā€™t find a way to change that). Iā€™d rather have shortcuts that are different in different activities. (I may not have checked to see if it shortcuts appear on all Desktops within the same Activity; Iā€™m only using one Desktop in eight Activities.)

As far as keyboard shortcuts, I gave them short shrift because I donā€™t often use themā€“best to have someone else explicate them. In fact, from where I sit a couple of them are annoyances since my text editor would like to use the same combinations. Someday Iā€™ll address that on my system.

You are using folder view, and using the same folder location.
Change it in ā€œConfigure Desktopā€

Single/Double click - Settings->SystemSettings->Workspace Behaviour->General Behaviour

To repeat myself, none of this is Qubes specific and itā€™s all KDE
documented.

True, none of this is Qubes. But I thought my post would be helpful for Qubes users migrating from xfce. Since I was using xfce before I even knew how to spell qube I thought my perspective might be valuable to them. (In other words the spirit of it was meant to be, ā€˜if youā€™re used to xfce this will help you get going with KDE.ā€™)

Hello,

Could you help me understand how to save this file as root once itā€™s edited please? I have extremely limited knowledge of terminal, Linux and Qubes in general having only just started this journey of awesomeness.

Thanks!

Thanks for sharing, great that this KDE-topic is so popular according to views count.
I completely support opinion about KDE as a main DE of Qubes OS, and I hope this switch to xfce will be reverted one day.

Nowadays I personally still use xfce despite how non-functional and ugly it is (like absence of basic window placement rules, omg) just to avoid any additional problems as majority of people and devs still use it and not use KDE.
But I do use KDE in all my templates that I have to make myself based on fedora-minimal to avoid as much gnome and gtk stuff as much as possible. Templates include dolphin, kate, gwenview, okular, qbittorrent. okteta that have no proper alternatives in gnome as so-called alternatives are completely out of league, to my opinion.

Thanks again for your support of KDE :slight_smile:

Xfce can be pretty ugly out of the box and probably sacrilege on here but changing the Window Manager theme to use RedmondXP made things less ugly to my eye. YMMV and sure plenty of people loathe that XP look by now but shrug. Still think the default was rather fugly.

I agree. One of the benefits of XFCE is that the window border has the AppVM color. Which makes sorting a touch quicker. But it comes at the cost of having a dated aesthetic. Iā€™m curious what the latest XFCE update has, if any, in terms of visuals. Functionality improvements are there for sure.

You can pick a theme in KDE that preserves the window color (though I agree the default was very bad in this regard).

The main advantages to me for KDE are

  1. the menus are far more configurable so you can group VMs in whatever way seems logical to you [though there is a better menu than current xfce in test on the xfce side, itā€™s not as configurable as KDE is].

  2. Activities are a little more separated from each other than desktops; activities are not available on xfce to my knowledge. I was able to set different colored backgrounds and desktop widgets on KDE. I donā€™t believe I could do that on xfce [though my memory could be fault on this point; it has been a while since I switched].

1 Like

It would be great if both were a choice and hopefully that happens. Probably would pick KDE over Xfce as well but understand fully QubesOS may be free but its development certainly isnā€™t without cost. At least we arenā€™t stuck using crappy gnome. I keed (not really).