Flexi-chains: multi-protocol tunnel-chaining app for Qubes to annoy GPAs

nope, it does make sense, all things have different complicacy.
hmm, apologies in advance, it looks like beyond my capacity.
but, thanks in advance, for initiating this kind of project.

i thought, web browser communicates via https protocol only,
but maybe, other software communicates via different protocol, i.e. ftp, etc
i am not sure, maybe different OSI layer has different protocol,

and flexi-chains can randomize setting, for every specific times,
it’s good, it can randomize proxy and vpn, let’s say every 10 minutes,
but it also randomize protocol ? or for protocol we can choose only,
hmm, what if it gives us ftp, while we need http, and vice versa,

also it looks like, it has not considered browser fingerprint,
also, software that using specific protocol, may have software fingerprint,
also it looks like, cannot solve my case , since definitely cannot block / remove NSA-tier backdoor.
do you have any project, that can block / remove NSA-tier backdoor ?

Don’t underestimate yourself.

firefox/chrome can use many different protocols, not just https.

A link can be one of either: a tunnel or a guard.
A tunnel is the type which forwards/proxies/VPNs/TORs/etc traffic - hence ‘tunnel’.
A tunnel has a ‘mode’ (i.e. static/reboot/rotate-[between configs]), as I explained earlier.
You can set config(s): hence you can have multiple configurations.
Within the configuration you can choose the protocol.
Now, what is interesting with V0, is that (when released), given I am currently planning to use glider, you could technically create a chain with one config.
That aside, (sorry if I complicated things again), the point is if you select rotate(random,minutes,10,20) as the ‘mode’ for your tunnel - link 1, and you have 2 configuration files, one of them we’ll call: VPN, the other: proxy - every 10-20 minutes that tunnel VM, link 1, would restart, so if it was previously on VPN it would switch to proxy, if it was previously on proxy, it would switch to VPN.
So it’s up to you if you switch the protocol. WHich would happen in the above case if your proxy was https, for instance, and your VPN was wireguard, for instance.

CHeck out the link I posted, (r/e glider), that’s the current plan for the supported protocols for V0.

If you checkout the roadmap (link on the github page), you’ll see that this has been factored in for a release Far In The Future. If you read the long-feature-list.md you will see the why says: this is a pivotal step to something approaching true anonymity. (e.g: super cool browser plugins :P).

I was not joking about the whole google-keep metaphor. I agree with you 100%, security is all about privacy. The only true privacy is in your head. However, you can use your computer securely (i.e. in a privacy respecting manner), even if it has been ‘compromised’. You just have to ensure what you do is done in a way that you understand, and your adversary doesn’t - does that make sense to you @newbie ?

Apoligies if the above are poor explanations.

I was not joking about the whole google-keep metaphor. I agree with you 100%, security is all about privacy.

hmm, actually I don’t really understand about the metaphor,
it feels like, it has multi-interpretation.
Apology if I have wrong interpretation.

You just have to ensure what you do is done in a way that you understand, and your adversary doesn’t

so, related to NSA-tier backdoor, for example ?

Yes. I think I may be explaining this poorly, how can I be more helpful to you?

Assuming that you understand the following assumptions:
You are only as strong as your weakest link
Hence, the strongest your achile’s heel (weakest link) is, the more difficult it is for an attacker, e.g: a bad NSA.

My point about google keep is this:
It’s all very well somebody attacking what /they/ may think your weakpoint is - let’s say a BIOS/firmware backdoor - that is, they’ve got root access over dom0 (for example).

However, if when they get inside dom0 they discover you are writing things such as ‘must send a cake to mount everest via teletubby’ - being inside dom0 isn’t really pwnage (owning you/your privacy/compromising your security) is it?

For instance, the above to me would mean, in my head:
Message Edward Snowden via Telegram to say happy birthday.

Is this making more sense @newbie ?

Again, I apologise if it doesn’t - just let me know.

i see, you mean, we can write data as disinformation,
which mean, only the writer can interpret.

hmm, yes, i think it works, only if we have few data,
but maybe, for writer, journalist, with huge writing data,
i could not remember, much information, and disinformation in my head,
that’s why we need notes, or laptop.

or maybe during writing email, or graphic designer, interior designer, architect,
also cannot disinformation.

but, thank you for your advice,
apology for keep reasoning.

That is what I mean, yes.

For somebody in such a situation, who for example had an NSA firmware-backdoor, it is best to assume that this information has been accessed already by the NSA. If they had logs I would recommend they check them.

Sometimes attacks cannot be prevented (because nobody has unlimited time to secure their computers). So, this is why I would always recommend a non-networked, passive logging system. That way you can try and discover when and how the attacker gained entry, thus identifying what exploit they used/how you are vulnerable - such that it cannot happen again.

Is this more helpful to you? @newbie

i apologize, i think our discussion, has made your thread out of context,

a non-networked, passive logging system

what kind of logging system it is ? any software / system name ?

Don’t worry about it, I’ve made more mess than anybody here.

Just make sure on this thread discussion is strictly relevant to flexi-chains.

I suggest you start here.
Sorry to be blunt, I have got other things to do.

I have tagged @deeplow on a thread linked where I’ve indicated to split (sry again deeplow - but also thankyou :wink:

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okay, thanks in advance :slightly_smiling_face:

Let’s get this party started!!

I very much look forward to this. Will you have install and basic setup routines to help use out in doing “flex-chains”?

You may want to look at v2ray

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I have given it a star to look at later, thanks for the info.

Should I be looking at this as an alternative to glide?

@Plexus

EDIT:
Can you clarify, is the v2ray link you posted deprecated for v2fly/v2ray? I’m confused :frowning:

v2ray/v2fly/Project V confused me

it 404 now
Edit:the link is GitHub - nadoo/glider: glider is a forward proxy with multiple protocols support, and also a dns/dhcp server with ipset management features(like dnsmasq).

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Typo, sorry.

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Important UPDATE:

Flexi-chains is set to be adopted by a super-duper awesome new company I am launching very soon.

I will keep everyone posted.

And also, thanks everyone for your feedback & support - I really appreciate it all!

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@Quser59
Any update ?

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You might need to take an introductory course to Information Security (@newbie might be interested too). Privacy (Confidentiality) is only one of the pillars of security. Also, hoping that your adversary won’t understand what you are doing, and hoping that will protect you, is called “security by obscurity” and doesn’t last for very long, if at all.

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@Quser59 any update?

I’ll try to get involved as best I can. I’ll be studying up on how to use v2ray and glider. Anything else I should look into?

Also are you familiar with any proven systems for streaming “cover traffic”, see my response about this thesis to fix the flaws of TOR https://www.csrc.link/download/defending-end-to-end-confirmation-attacks-against-the-tor-network/defending-end-to-end-confirmation-attacks-against-the-tor-network.pdf I posted about here:

https://forum.qubes-os.org/t/cover-traffic-garbage-generator/5469/5?u=gateofranre

I see Stunnel mentioned but it doesn’t too seem to be to fit as a obfuscation / plausible deniability layer?

This also mentioned seems to be closer to meeting the requirement: https://github.com/ReconInfoSec/web-traffic-generator

If you would like maybe this is where I can fit in to your project, but I’m a novice programmer, so if I could bounce questions off you hopefully you could help me if I find myself stuck at a certain point.

Also you mentioned passive logging, that’s my current focus with the Qubes IDS we talked about in other threads previously. So if you think it’s beneficial, maybe that could be my second effort to get working within your flexi-chain system.

I have a 5-day contract for the foreseeable future.

However, as per another post on here, this will enable me to pay for dev time.

My level of knowledge is much more:
Let’s use Qubes APIs to launch VMs with v2ray and import configs via command line.
(As opposed to writing each line of code).

If you would like to work on the project, please feel free to PM me or find my details via github.

Your ‘novice’ ability most likely far exceeds my programming speed.
(Honestly, I just haven’t got the commitment/time to program a project. I need to stick to the management/abstract spec else it will never get done). I can help much better by raising 6 figures in a couple of months, then spending those 2 months programming.

I foresee that I will have 6 figures of liquidity - much of which I would like to allocate to dev/Qubes work - in the next 12 months.

The current corporate structure is planned as follows:
Development Corporation/Conglomorate

  • Sub-projects/assets (i.e. flexi-chains).

All assets with fair-use licences.
Business model is from premium support/consulting/plugins, (which are also planned to be open-source&free after lag-time of approx 12-24 months max).

As my current contract business is using MS Windows, and QWT is chugging slowly - I also plan the following:
(Within dev. corporation):
‘QBusiness Company’
(This will be a fork of qubes, contributing directly to this fork - leaving it upto the Qubes core team if they want to adopt anything upstream).

Disclaimer

I need to double-check that this is ok with Qubes licencing and core team

Proclaimer:
There are many reasons the QBusiness company will be setup like this to start with:

  1. Qubes Core Team is small - forking the project reduces burden in many ways
  2. Forking the project removes liability/branding issues etc.
  3. It means Qubes remains non-commercial and nobody can claim that they are being influenced by the company, as we contribute directly to the fork.

Also, I wish to make it very very clear that we will adopt an open-source & free licence for the fork.

Long-term a non-profit corp or a ‘charity’ would probably be ideal for this venture, however I must make the following Disclaimer:
Charity law where I am is some of the most complex in the world, and you would need 5-6 figures/year. (in admin/management overheads), to maintain charity status for such a project.
It would require further admin overheads and disagregration of the project (i.e. separate charity/nonprofit from consulting company), which is simply pointless until the project grows that big.

Also, for anyone wondering, am I really comitted to Qubes?
The answer is Yes. Thankfully, Joanna laid out quite clearly why OpenXT is not all it’s cracked up to be.
Further, I do not ever see SecureView, (OpenXT-based), being open-sourced/free-licenced - the only reason I can see this would be done is if Qubes became a commercial competitor.
In addition to all that: From what I’ve learnt of SecureView, the only really major headstart they have rightnow is the apps builtupon the admin API(s) - which Qubes 4.1 now has (the admin API).

Apologies for leaving everyone without an update - and for the very long post.
I am working hard on building a trustworthy core team, and generating revenue - bare with me please.

If anybody is interested in joining this team or contributing - please get in touch.

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I don’t think there’s that many options (that can be easily integrated) - and I think many are commercial. @adw knows more than myself on this matter.

Keep It Simple.

I already envisage a ‘standardisation’/‘steganography’ etc layer.
This is ‘easy’ to design at abstract level.
All you need to do is add an extra layer - no redesign is needed.
Look at TOR obfsproxies.

There’s so many really simply ways to create a custom steganography protocol that’s realtively high bandwidth (mb/s) - i.e. making it look like traffic to mainstream sites (sites.google.com, etc etc). Video streaming or livestreaming upload - where you have your traffic and then use a clever algorithm to make it look like you are streaming a genuine video. (And you just do this ‘after’ you’ve forwarded it your VPN, so unless anybody is really looking carefully, it just looks like you’re streaming whinnie the poo).

The advantage of flexi-chains, is it is built atop Qubes - with ‘Guard’ and ‘Tunnel’ Nodes.
So even if something is so poorly coded in flexi-chains that it ebnaled a 2-exploit compromise of a VM, you can just put a unikernel guard node in-front and behind it - and it has the protection that Qubes offers atop the Xen hypervisor (which, suffice to say: is reasonably secure).

EDIT/UPDATE:
See the very basic example setup I just wrote: