Defining our target audience for community guides, accessibility for new users

One hazard of trying to find things out about Linux (in general, not Qubes specific) is that the search engine will often put an old, pre-System-D answer at the top–and the user might not realize it’s obsolete.

It’s unfortunate because the pre-System-D solution is often much less complex than the System D one is, because the System-D solution involves creating a service, etc.

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I suppose I should have said “Linux knowledge” by which I mean at least SOME command line.

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This is a very interesting thread. And I think that it is very good to think of the beginners. I usually advocate for beginners in every community that I’m part of (maybe because I have been teaching courses for many years).

That said, i.m.h.o. one thing that could be done is to publish guides in categories, because it is, again i.m.h.o., the most realistic approach. It would go like this:

  1. guides for beginners
  2. guides for intermediate users
  3. guides for advanced users

Such is life. When you are a beginner, there are some things that you can do, some that you can by using a guide, and some that you just can not.

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I feel. Our developers, are correct in limiting their responsibility to –Not-- changing code inside of other operating systems and packages that is being maintained by other people. Any time someone has and thought the developers should have done something differently, usually think about it, and either he developers did the correct thing in terms of security, or it is a feature they might yet implement.

My first hope for OS Development is, when the project is finished: “Don’t Waste my Time.”

My thought to Solene’s question is, a Windows refugee is expecting a Finished Operating System. Our forum are filled –how to do this that or the other. An explanation, then what becomes a long thread of, well this happened, and now how to I get it to work.

While concepts of Security and Privacy seem to be in contradiction to a full, complete operating system, the concept of Qubes Security by compartmentalization, can be used -carefully, cleverly to obtain a good bit of Security, Privacy, and in addition to the skillful use of Whonix, then even more skillful use of closing down Qubes, moving information around to offline manipulation, then the chosen result back to an fresh compartment, (aka Qube) to shuffle information back onto internet.

A Human Rights lawyer was explaining to me that he used Qubes for awhile with just one Qube, which was for just one Operating System. Almost like a regular computer. One of the obstacles newcomers have is installing software. Our collection of how to’s does not, seem to me, to be a solution for a newcomer with little computer skill, and worse, no time or patience to read, study, learn, experiment, and try again.

Windows refugees/Linux newbies/Qubes newbies really need an Operating System that – is directly easy to understand, and hard to make mistakes that lead to privacy/security/ possibly/anonymity problems. Success in these requires careful use of the OS.

Perhaps the first issue for newbies, is to be able to easily install software.

So, at this time: I want a full featured Template for Fedora 42. Already has installed FlatPak/Snap.

Off of that, a Disposable version.

A graphic tool to move information out of the Disposable to another Offline Qube based upon the same above Template. And of course safeguards to prevent information being accidentally deleted.
It is only using the Disposable to gain information from the internet.
Moving that data to the offline Qube.
Deleting the Disposable.
Reading. Preparing reply in a offline Qube derived off the Template.

Start a Disposable Qube based on the Template.

Have a Graphics tool to move information from the offline Qube.

As someone could quickly point out, there must a Template for a Qube to do Chats, Video conferences, interactive things like, UGH Facebook. X.

and an associated Disposable.

Qubes already created with the better thought of VPN’s. Only need to enter payment code.

Three big objections;
This will use a lot of RAM.
It will begin a set of arguments about which software Applications one should never use, those which are marginally, considered by some to be all right. A discussion which, I am thinking the moderators do not want, on the Qubes Forum.
Who will maintain these Qubes? Answer Questions?

I would prefer the encryption key to allow these Qubes to be directly added, comes in the original install of Qubes. Then a trustworthy place for a Repository of these Qubes.

This scheme depends on compartmentalization of Qubes to prevent malware, spyware from being perpetuated. I have not described a method to stay anonymous. Or more serious Security.

I am hopeful that someone can describe this method more clearly.

but we must get out of the mode of - a guide for that, which is difficult for some. Taking hours to put together several Qubes for their own use. That time/effort drives newbies/Windows Refugees/Linux newbies/security newbies away.

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this opinion may not be popular but just putting this out there…

I have come to Qubes after years of learning how to run linux vms in virtualbox on Windows. Why? Because switching was too cumbersome, requires a learning curve especially since I have never used a linux terminal before.

Linux Guests on Windows Home was band-aid solution to having a more secure compute environment with the least work. Eventually, to get linux to work how I wanted, I gradually learnt simple bash and unix commands. I am still no expert, but I have a decent grasp on things.

Fast forward several years, I decided to put my learnings to the test by installing qubes and switching to linux for good. It was a rough beginning. EFI corruption, dom0 running out of disk space, sys-usb auto start failing etc… But here we are…

Even though most will recommend against copy/past commands in terminal without knowing what you are doing, I think most would appreciate a normie going out of their way to drop windows/mac for Qubes. Its a tremendous feat for us normies (myself included).

So eventhough documentation is nice, I think there should be a version of documentation with less semantics. Less of the why, and different configuration options for different threat models and scenarios. We need a barebones version of documentation that will get a normie to migrate from win/mac to qubes with the least friction as possible. All of the familiar software bundles, configurations etc. ready to go at a moments notice.

I recently found this helpful tool: https://tuxmate.com/ which reminds me of a similar windows tool that I used when I first installed windows 10. It was really convenient to get all the software I needed so I can get back to work with the least amount of friction possible. In Hindsight, if I had known about tuxmate when i switched to linux VMs in virtualbox, It would have made things SO MUCH easier.

I think a tool like LinuxMate will be really helpful for newcomers to Qubes. A tool that setups your templates, installs the software you need, configures your AppVMs, netVMs, Disposables etc. The most hands off approach to setting up Qubes is the way forward in my opinion.

EDIT: Many typos :expressionless:

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Bit of a rant

There are two kinds of newbies. The common ones who are trying their best, are prepared to apply themselves and persevere and, if documentation and help is offered, can become proficient. The others are not really interested in applying themselves. They want to be spoonfed, prefer you do it for them and never try to understand it.

The latter is growing and is quite common. I have a fair bit of experience with them in meat space and online. Basically I’m putting in more work helping them than they are into helping themselves.

I can understand qubes wanting to appeal to newbies but I think it’s a bad fit, certainly for the second type. I hope disproportionate resources are not devoted to it.

Linux has become much easier to use for the newbie since a decade ago yet it’s adoption amongst newbies is far below the multiplier of ease of use it has achieved.

In another technical area I work, we have catered to newbies by architecting things around them (to the point we have reduced our security to a level that they could understand) as well as changing terminology to be more easily understand and self explanatory. Yet new adoption has been underwhelming and largely the even newer people still complain about it being too hard to comprehend.

When you’re greatest competitor for tech usage is Apple and things automagically working, you are always going backwards relatively.

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@catacombs most of what you are describing is already implemented, right?

Some other things are related to Fedora or Debian?

Some others might be covered by unman’s tools?

Anyway, this topic is about community guides :slight_smile:


About this, I think the Diataxis method helps write documentation. Again, this topic is about the community guides. Most of the guides are “how-tos”, some are “tutorials”. But the how-tos don’t strictly stick to their role, most of the time.

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Thank you for reading my post. I was addressing, accessibility.

For a Windows Refugee. What you are suggesting is a many, many, many hours of reading through documentation, Community Guides. What I am suggesting is to not do that to newcomers. Provide a version of Qubes which is polished enough they can directly start using it. Just imagine for a Windows Refugee, trying to get Unman’s encryption key into dom0.

"Whats a Terminal. Where is it at. Oh, there is a Terminal in every Qube? I guess I can just use whichever one I want? Oh only one, and it is where on the screen? Those commands are not working for me?

And actually Unman, for all the great work he has done, does not offer a pre-set Qube for all of the Qubes I mentioned.

Plus you are suggesting this , what, at least a hundred hours of a learning curve, while, perhaps, living in a country which would not feel, or act kindly towards an individual in their country using Qubes.

Yes, you are correct, my post had little to add to Community Guides. Maybe Community Guides will never be satisfactory to those who, just, need to get their computer up and running, without revealing themselves on the internet. While being an individual who does not have three years of multiple courses in Linux, or maybe not an IQ over 160, which often leads some to individuals being somewhat sarcastic. I know, I have several family members who say caustic things about me to often. but then they are usually right. I have already been uninvited to Thanksgiving dinner next year.

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I should apologize, that I seem to be criticizing a lot of really good work in doing documentation, and how to’s. Just all that -creating their Qubes from all that documentation-- is too much for a newcomer, who is not technically experienced/aware.

A lot of good effort has been made in creating understandable documentation.

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